CLEARWATER, Fla. — Most mornings this spring, Larry Bowa can be found in one of two places.
Bowa, 73, is typically either working with Phillies infielders on defensive drills on the complex’s half-field or throwing batting practice and hitting fungoes to infielders for additional reps. After spending four seasons as the Phillies’ bench coach, Bowa was named a senior advisor to general manager Matt Klentak on Oct. 13, 2017. He’s entering his 54th year in baseball, featuring 12 years in a Phillies uniform in which he made five All-Star teams, won two Gold Glove awards at shortstop and started on the 1980 World Series championship team.
In this Q&A, Bowa offers his perspective on his role in the organization, the state of the game and the 2019 Phillies. Some answers have been edited for length and clarity.
The Athletic: You’ve gone from being in uniform in the dugout to a front-office role. What has that transition been like over the last 16 months?
Larry Bowa: I’ll be honest with you, the first two months after we broke camp last year, it was a little hard. Because you’re used to breaking camp and being in the big leagues. The thing you’ve got to do is when you leave here, you hope in the big leagues there’s a little fine-tuning. When you leave here in the minor leagues, you’ve got to keep teaching. So, I have the luxury going to different affiliates. I try to go everywhere twice.
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TA: Has the job been what you thought it would be?
Bowa: Basically. I try to go when the Phillies are on the road because I like to watch them at home. The lower classification you go — in the big leagues you say, “You’ve got to make that play. That’s a must.” As you go down to A-ball or even Double A, the expectations, they’re high for them, but you can’t expect them to do that right now. So, that part was a little difficult because you’re fine-tuning the big league team while these guys are still learning.
TA: What do you enjoy the most about the position?
Bowa: Well last year, I really enjoyed the fact that when I came to Clearwater the first time, I happened to see (Mickey) Moniak who was hitting about .180 and then I got to come back in July and see him hit .280. You like that. Or you see (Arquimedes) Gamboa on a play where maybe he didn’t respect the ball the way he should have, you see him make a play – that kind of stuff is fun to watch. You don’t want to come back and say, “Oh man, you’re worse today than you were in spring training.” For the most part, it’s fun to watch them progress and the maturation process. So stuff like that, it’s satisfying to see them, saying, “Hey, they’re starting to get it, they’re close.”
TA: Do you see yourself ever getting back into big league coaching?
Bowa: No, I like this. And Matt has given me basically my own schedule of where you want to go. And then they had me going out and looking at some draft picks because we had a high pick. So that was fun, it was different. I’m sure this year I’ll go out and look at some kids again. I got a chance to see (Alec) Bohm and that kid from Stanford (Cubs prospect Nico Hoerner), the second baseman from Oregon State (White Sox prospect Nick Madrigal). They call you and say, “How do you rank them?” And then I would say, 1-2-3. They might say, “Why do you have him three because a bunch of our guys have him one?” I’d give my reason why. There’s no “You’ve got to like this guy.” They ask what you see and I tell them. You know me, I’m going to be honest. Because I know who they like and if I don’t think he should be the choice for where we’re picking, I’ll give you my opinion.
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TA: The Phillies have become such a big part of your baseball identity. Did you think that would have been possible when you got traded to the Cubs?
Bowa: To this extent, probably not. Even when people talked to me in my four years in Chicago (1982-1985), it was a great time, a great city. I grew up here in Philadelphia. I grew up a young kid. They taught me the way to play the game the right way when I was going through the minor leagues. We had a very good minor league system as far as teaching was concerned. I came from a background where guys always tried to help the younger kids.
Bill (Giles, former Phillies owner) and I had our differences. I’m sure a lot of it was my fault. At that time, I felt like I should’ve gotten a three-year contract here. It was a misunderstanding between the old owner and the new owner. Looking back on it, if I had to do it over I probably wouldn’t have done it. I’d have said, “OK, I’ll play for a year and we’ll see what happens.” But when you’re younger, you want a three-year deal. I forced the trade because I was a 5-10 player. Dallas (Green, then-Cubs GM) called me and said, “I think I’ve got something going, would you come over here?” And I said yeah. And then he said, “I think we’re going to throw in (Ryne) Sandberg.” At that time, Sandberg couldn’t pull the ball, but you could see he had great hands. I said, “Let’s do it.” I wouldn’t have done it if Dallas Green wasn’t over there. I wouldn’t have gone. I have a history with Dallas and Lee Elia, and they were all over there. They called the Cubs the “Phillies East.”
TA: There have been a lot of discussions recently about rule changes and looking for ways to improve the game or make games quicker. If you could implement one rule change, what would it be?
Bowa: I’m not into the faster game stuff. Let the game play out. I’ll tell you what I am into because it affects the way you look at kids: I don’t like the play at second base where if you barely touch the guy it’s a double play because when I look at an infielder, I look at his footwork and if he just stands on that bag and if you have a strong arm, you can play second base in the big leagues. You don’t have to worry about getting out of the way. You don’t have to worry about positioning yourself. Just stand there and if that guy hits you it’s a double play. I’d like to see infielders be able to move their feet, get out of the way when a guy’s bearing down.
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Now, I’m not into dirty slides. But I am into trying to break that play up and you don’t see it anymore because of the rule. So, we get deceived a little bit when you see a guy make a double play, you say, “Well, he’s got a good arm.” But does he have the footwork to make a play when nobody’s onto his right or left? Because I think that’s important footwork for an infielder. Again, I saw some of the slides made when I played; they were dirty. I’m not advocating that. But I am advocating that you as a runner, I’m trying to break up a double play. Maybe you can extend the rule a little bit instead of if he touches you, it’s a double play.
TA: As a hitter, how do you think you would have handled this age of analytics during your career?
Bowa: I probably wouldn’t have played. I didn’t sabermetric-out as a player. I wouldn’t have signed. Nobody would’ve signed me. I could run a little bit. I could catch the ball and throw the ball. But when I came up, I was an out. I couldn’t hit. I learned to switch-hit and got 2,000 hits, but it was through hard work. I wouldn’t have had the opportunity if analytics were involved when I played. I’m glad they weren’t involved when I played because I wouldn’t have played.
I’m all for analytics. There’s a lot of good stuff, trust me. I also think there’s a lot of stuff that when you come up here, it’s hard to hit a baseball and sometimes I think we are overloaded with too much information. I really do. In analytics, you can’t measure this (points to head) or this (points to heart), and to me, that’s a big part of guys being successful. Obviously, you have to have tools or you wouldn’t be here. I think sometimes we go overboard in rating tools and not looking enough at makeup, and how they are with their teammates, and how they are when they face adversity. When they’re 0 for 18, do they keep fighting? Do they throw their hands up and say, “Woe is me”? I want guys that fight. I want guys that say, “I’ll show you I can do this.” You can’t measure that. You’ve got to watch it with your eyes. That’s where I say the eye test comes into play a lot of times. But there’s some great stuff in analytics. There’s stuff that I’m going, “Wow.” There’s also stuff that I don’t think is important. It is the age of sabermetrics, and that’s how the game is. Whether you’re 70 years old or 20 years old, if you don’t make those adjustments with whatever role you have in the organization, then you won’t be in baseball very long. So you have to do both.
TA: There is growing speculation as to whether there will be a strike or lockout when MLB’s current collective bargaining agreement ends after the 2021 season. You’ve been through three strikes — as a player in 1972 and 1981, and as a Phillies coach in 1994. Do you see any similarities to the current environment and players’ frustrations?
Bowa: I think players were frustrated when we did it. And the only reason I’m saying this is because the money that the players are making now, I think it would be hard for them to stay united, whereas when I played – we had guys making money. It’s relative to when you played. Those guys made a lot of money – the key to that was being unified and no matter what you were making, guys stuck together. I think because they make big-time money, if you can keep them together, if they believe they’re being mistreated then you’ve got to be all in. You can’t be three-fourths in and one-quarter says, “You know what, I’m making a lot of money, I can’t do that.”
There’s some things you look at and say, “Well, if I was a player …” but there’s also things that I look at if I’m an owner, I’m going, “Hey, I like this.” I’ve seen the stuff on the (service-time manipulation), keeping guys down 20 or so days. Being on the other side of the fence now, I’m saying, “Hey, it gives (the team) another year.” When we played, 30, 31, 32, 33 years old, you’re coming into your own and you got paid for what you put up at 27, 28, 29 years old. Now it’s like they can project what you’re going to do from 30-33 and they’re going, no, no, it doesn’t equate. So that part of it’s different. But if you’re going to strike, you have to stay united.
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What I would like players to do is I wish they had the knowledge of guys like (union chiefs) Marvin Miller, (Donald) Fehr, knowing what those labor guys did to make baseball what it is now. You go back to (Cardinals player) Curt Flood and all that stuff, these guys don’t know all that. I’d like them to look at the history of the reason we went on strike because we got to reap the dividends later on, but it was tough at the time. I’m not going to lie to you, it was tough. Guys were getting mad, but we said you can’t say anything, you’ve got to stay right here and be united. It’s going to be different. I think fans might have trouble relating because let’s face it: When you have two guys that sign over $300 million and there’s some like (Clayton) Kershaw and (Justin) Verlander, they’re all making big money and it’s going to be hard for fans. The guys are getting hurt are guys like (Mike) Moustakas, who has signed three one-year contracts. He’s a good player. I will say that when we finally did strike, we did have the hammer after we came back and now the pendulum has sort of swung the other way. The way it has evolved is really fascinating.
TA: Being around this 2019 group, what has stood out to you the most?
Bowa: The thing that stands out is the players we’ve picked up: (J.T.) Realmuto, (Jean) Segura, (Andrew) McCutchen, they’re good people. They’re good teammates. They’ve played on teams that have won more than they’ve lost. Realmuto hasn’t, but you can see his attitude, the way he walks around here, the way he carries himself. And then you mix that in with Rhys Hoskins and Aaron Nola, guys like that, you see something is building here. I do think looking at the NL East, with the exception of the Marlins, who are a young team, the East is better. Every team is better. You’re going to have to bring it every night. To have a guy like (Bryce) Harper really helps us. It helps our offense a lot. Even with Harper in the lineup, you’re going to have grind.
People can say the Phillies are the team to beat, but you take a look at Washington, they’ve got a good team. The Mets, they’ve improved their team. There’s an atmosphere now where the addition of those guys made these young guys say, “Hey, they really do want to win upstairs.” You get Harper, they’re saying, “It’s time to go to the next level,” and I think we can. I said last year I would be very disappointed if we didn’t play .500, and I am disappointed we didn’t. We were there all year, and I’m disappointed we didn’t play .500. I’m going to tell you right now, barring injuries, if we don’t get into the playoffs, I’ll be more disappointed than ever because I think this team is capable of going to the playoffs.
TA: You still throwing batting practice. What do you do to keep your arm and shoulder in shape?
Bowa: I’ve been very fortunate. I’ve never been cut on, no Tommy John. During the winter, I try to workout every day, but when I get close to February I’ll go into a gym — it’s a small gym and I know the owner — and I’ll get a tennis ball and I’ll start firing it off the wall to get the muscles going. (Phillies infield coach) Bobby Dickerson said to me, “You do pretty good for 63.” I went, “I’m not 63.” He went, “What, you’re 64?” I said, “73.” He said, “Get out of here. You’ve got to be kidding me.” I look at it as a compliment, you know? As long as God lets me and I stay healthy and the Phillies keep letting me do my thing, I love baseball.
Baseball has been my life. Everything I have, I owe to baseball. To this day, I respect putting this uniform on and when people come in here and they don’t respect the game or don’t respect the uniform, that makes me angry. I get mad. Because it takes a lot of hard work to wear this thing and to keep it on for a long time, it’s something I’m proud of. I’m also thankful that the Phillies organization has given me an opportunity to do this.
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TA: How would you describe the state of the game right now, and do you have any concerns going forward?
Bowa: I’m a little concerned — and I’m not going to lie to you — that the game has evolved as a whole that it’s a strikeout, a walk or a home run. That bothers me a little bit. I like to see guys score from first on a double. I like to see guys make great plays. I like to see stolen bases. I like to see the complete game. It’s become a game of matchups, which back in the day if you tried to take (Steve) Carlton out in the fifth inning, you’d have a fight right on the mound. That part of the game upsets me a little bit.
I think baseball is an exciting game, but I’ll be honest, I watched some games last year and got bored. You’d have eight walks and 12 strikeouts. I don’t like a man on third and less than two outs, and a guy is swinging like the count is 3-0 and he ends up striking out instead of, “Hey, the infield’s back, let me score this run. Let me put this ball in play.” I would like to see that come back a little bit. Then again, I watch a team like the Red Sox, who won it all, and they did all that. I’m happy about that. Houston, that’s another team that does that. So, maybe we’re slowly and surely getting back to complete teams. But that one part of the game bothers me a bit. Hopefully, it gets better.
Top photo: Phillies manager Gabe Kapler shakes hands with Larry Bowa in June 2018. (Mitchell Leff/Getty Images)